?

Log in

Jul. 24th, 2008 @ 07:44 am I'm here to rescue you
~
1x07 Discussion

cave in


Am finding I really like the sharpness of S1. Again, this ep is packed. But seriously, Charlie's hand coming through the ground? Maybe we were supposed to think of old horror movies and zombies and tales from the crypt, but what immediately came to my mind was Misery (which I *read* but never watched, so what I see in my head may be vastly different from what was on screen).

Question for the week: what were your three favorite lines from this ep?
About this Entry
Lost - waterfall
hendercats:
[User Picture Icon]
From:doctors_girl
Date:July 24th, 2008 12:18 pm (UTC)

spoilers for season 3

(Permanent Link)
I just LOVE Charlie's "I'm here to rescue you". Loving all the SW refeencies in Lost. :)
But honestly in this episode I love everything about Charlie. I love that we see he's not just a junkie, he's much more complex and he's absolutely no coward. We get to see the hero in him, the hero Nadia also saw when he saved her from the muggler. I always loved that flashback when she told him "you are a hero and don't let anyone ever tell you differently", because it's true and this episode proved that so early in the series.
[User Picture Icon]
From:falafel_musings
Date:July 24th, 2008 12:34 pm (UTC)

Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
The Moth is a very watchable episode. I found the handling of Charlie's drug story a bit obvious and simple like an after-school special. The Charlie/Locke scenes were good but the moth metaphor was kinda anvilious. However, I have to say looking back it's great to see the survivors all working together, helping each other and trying to get rescued - as opposed to working in seperate teams, lying and betraying each other and trying to prevent rescues.

Well, in Charlie's first centric - like in Charlie's last centric - he voulenteers for a suicide mission for the good of the group, crawling into a cave in to save their only doctor. Why does Charlie offer to do this? Because he has no family on the island. You know, it's kinda sad that several months later when Charlie has gained a family on the island, nobody took his place.

Sayid was great in this ep. I always love seeing his technical stragedies at work, even if something always goes wrong. Sayid's cleverness can never pay off, poor guy.

Question for the week: what were your three favorite lines from this ep?

- I loved Charlie's little confession speech where he is trying to politely explain his recent Driveshaft orgy to his priest.

- Locke's line "You make excellent bait!" always makes me laugh. Only Locke would think the best thing for a drug addict in withdrawral is to be chased through the jungle by a rampaging boar.

- I really like that Locke gave Charlie a choice whether to quit heroin or not. It's nice to see the theme of free will there.
[User Picture Icon]
From:pacejunkie
Date:July 24th, 2008 01:07 pm (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
However, I have to say looking back it's great to see the survivors all working together, helping each other and trying to get rescued - as opposed to working in seperate teams, lying and betraying each other and trying to prevent rescues.

I really like that Locke gave Charlie a choice whether to quit heroin or not. It's nice to see the theme of free will there.


We'll be commenting on this more in later episodes since you don't really know it here but even here we're seeing splits and betrayals. It was Locke after all that hit Sayid over the head and scuttled their rescue attempt (so much for free will, eh Locke?) Locke only likes free will when its consistent with his own desires. What he then does next week really showed me how potentially evil he was (handing Sayid a knife and convincing him that Sawyer had hit him). This was the first sign of grenade in the mouth Locke.

But again, that's for next week, I just wanted to say that even here it wasn't all roses and happy families. There was plenty of discord and secrets from the beginning. The caves vs. the beach was the first split of many, and notice how the people "working together" here for rescue -- Kate, Boone, Shannon, Sawyer, Sayid -- are all those who chose to stay on the beach. The cavies weren't helping with rescue.
[User Picture Icon]
From:matitablu
Date:July 24th, 2008 01:32 pm (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
Interesting observation! Well, I guess we were supposed to see something dark about Locke since that final montage in the pilot, where the music - was it "Wash away"? - ends on that creepy note just as the camera turns to focus on John. He is also the character that's mostly associated to the white/black, light/dark trope.

and notice how the people "working together" here for rescue -- Kate, Boone, Shannon, Sawyer, Sayid -- are all those who chose to stay on the beach. The cavies weren't helping with rescue.
True, but weren't Sun and Michael (and Jin?) giving help too? I am really wondering because I rewatched the ep while working on an assignment and listened to it more than actually looking at the screen :-)
[User Picture Icon]
From:pacejunkie
Date:July 24th, 2008 02:07 pm (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
Sun, Jin and Michael were helping with the cave-in. There was cross assistance with the cave-in (many beachies went to help so when the chips were down they were there for each other), but when it came to Sayid's finding the signal and calling for help, it was 100% beachie.
[User Picture Icon]
From:falafel_musings
Date:July 24th, 2008 03:45 pm (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
I think there needed to be a balance though. They needed people to keep trying for a rescue, but while they were stuck on the island they also needed people to hunt for food, distribute water, sort through supplies - the cavies were doing more of that stuff. I wouldn't call that a rivalry, both teams were working for the good of the overall camp.
[User Picture Icon]
From:hendercats
Date:July 25th, 2008 12:47 am (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
Locke only likes free will when its consistent with his own desires.
Very well said! I'm not sure how clear that really was the first time through - you mentioned his aiming Sayid at Sawyer in 1x08, and our knowledge that he's really the one that cold cocked Sayid ... knowing that about him, and knowing he's capable of stuffing a live grenade in a bound man's mouth, shows how truly sneaky ("sneaky" doesn't sound nearly bad enough) he can be and indicates (to me at least) how little he cares for his fellow survivors.
[User Picture Icon]
From:pacejunkie
Date:July 25th, 2008 12:57 am (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
In a way Locke has become the very personfication of the island itself. The island is now behaving very much the bully that Locke has been, forcing the characters to bend to its well and allowing those to die that it is through with. Sacrifices that the island demands, with Locke as its willing henchman. I now see how Locke connected on such a deep level with the island, they are two of a kind. Trouble is it's taken the show to too dark a place for me to continue to enjoy it. The island is a tyrant.
[User Picture Icon]
From:elliotsmelliot
Date:July 24th, 2008 03:06 pm (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
I found the handling of Charlie's drug story a bit obvious and simple like an after-school special. The Charlie/Locke scenes were good but the moth metaphor was kinda anvilious.

I haven't rewatched this episode since it originally aired for those reasons. I found the whole cave in stuff pretty tedious and the drug stuff not all that interesting, except for Locke making it Charlie's choice. But it might be fun to go back for all the other stuff. The idea that Charlie was willing to sacrifice himself is an interesting pattern that I had not realized started so early.
[User Picture Icon]
From:falafel_musings
Date:July 24th, 2008 03:36 pm (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
Yeah, it's all a bit paint by numbers. It's probably my least favourite Charlie ep. I actually liked Fire + Water better. The other thing that distracts me is the whole cave in set looks really fake. It's still an enjoyable ep. It hits all the right notes. It just hits them it a easy obvious way.
[User Picture Icon]
From:hendercats
Date:July 25th, 2008 12:43 am (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
several months later when Charlie has gained a family on the island, nobody took his place
Not for lack of trying! Desmond - despite his vision - was once again ready to sacrifice what he believed was his chance for rescue and reunion with Penny and was preparing to dive down to Looking Glass so that Charlie could stay with Claire and Aaron. And Charlie's response was to make certain Des stayed in the boat by the rather definitive application of an oar to his head (POTC much?).

Only Locke would think the best thing for a drug addict in withdrawral is to be chased through the jungle by a rampaging boar.
Bwahahahaha! Locke is fascinating to me this time through, knowing so much more about him. He's such a continuous contradiction - he wants to do the island mystic thing, but the next moment he's some sort of survivor!Rambo, and the end justifies any means he deems suitable. Hmmm... perhaps "contradiction" isn't right at all - maybe he's just operating at a much more primitive level than the other survivors.
[User Picture Icon]
From:camille_moineau
Date:July 25th, 2008 03:16 am (UTC)

Re: Spoilers!

(Permanent Link)
"rather definitive application of an oar to his head (POTC much?)"

Those were my thoughts when I first watched the ep! The writers have to be POTC fans, there's so many little things I've noticed throughout that no one can convince me otherwise. One of my other favorite POTC shout-outs is in one of my favorite eps, "Flashes Before Your Eyes," when Charlie has ulterior motives for getting Desmond drunk, and a few minutes later finds out from his drinking pal that he's going to die.

There's also the issues of betrayal, daddy issues, unnecessary love triangles, creepy manipulating bastards motivated by romantic rejection, crazy islands, and compasses that don't work.

Of course, I could be reaching with a lot of these. But I don't care. :-)

(I've been very busy with RL events for the past two months and haven't really been able to give this whole rewatch thing the attention I want...) Also, for some reason Mozilla doesn't give me the bottom scrollbar when I go to watch the eps at ABC.com, so the only ones I can see are the last few. *sigh*

Edited at 2008-07-25 03:27 am (UTC)
[User Picture Icon]
From:pacejunkie
Date:July 24th, 2008 12:40 pm (UTC)

spoilers

(Permanent Link)
Charlie seemed so different then -- younger, less sure of himself. I also love the "I'm here to rescue you" line. And Jack's saying he's no saint either. Boy that wasn't the half of it. But here was where I started loving Jarlie. The brother/buddy relationship they had was wonderful. Charlie had so much potential here -- the rock star past, wanting to be useful, needing a family or someone to look out for him. Locke taking advantage of that neediness was a little squicky, even as he may have believed he was helping him. Charlie was too impressionable for his own good.

I still have to ask myself what was the point of this episode and learning how to strengthen oneself to survive if three months later he would only die anyway by a combination of murder/suicide. It bothers me how they took away from the growth here with that end to his character, even as he believed it was an act of heroism. But we see here he was heroic from the beginning, so it really wasn't growth. I also wish they had done more with the whole musician part of his character. By the very end they did, but for a while it was ignored, and it was a big part of who he was, even more than the drug habit. I wanted to see more of his early musician life. Anyway, this is the complete Charlie here, every aspect of his character that I loved and a great centric ep.
[User Picture Icon]
From:falafel_musings
Date:July 24th, 2008 07:17 pm (UTC)

Re: spoilers

(Permanent Link)
I still have to ask myself what was the point of this episode and learning how to strengthen oneself to survive if three months later he would only die anyway by a combination of murder/suicide. It bothers me how they took away from the growth here with that end to his character, even as he believed it was an act of heroism. But we see here he was heroic from the beginning, so it really wasn't growth.

Well, yeah. Exactly. But this is Damon Lindelof who thought Harry Potter needed to die a heroic sacrifical death because it was only fair after his parents died heroic sacrifical deaths to save his life (?!?). I'm so OVER heroic sacrifical deaths. I think Damon sees something glorious in death that I don't. How is Charlie drowning himself and leaving Aaron/Claire better than Charlie living and being there for them all their lives? The Moth!Charlie understood the importance of Michael not risking his life because Walt would be orphaned. But Michaels dead now too, soo...
[User Picture Icon]
From:pacejunkie
Date:July 24th, 2008 07:54 pm (UTC)

Re: spoilers

(Permanent Link)
The Moth!Charlie understood the importance of Michael not risking his life because Walt would be orphaned.

Exactly, things like that mattered then.

But Michaels dead now too, soo...

And unfortunately, exactly again. Damon has serious daddy issues. I remember when we thought that Charlie being the only father figure in Aaron's life would keep him alive. *slaps self*
[User Picture Icon]
From:doctors_girl
Date:July 24th, 2008 10:29 pm (UTC)

Re: spoilers

(Permanent Link)
I totally agree with that comment.

Charlie's death is the thing I couldn't forgive for Lost writers and I still think it was a huge mistake and did bad for the show. His character always balanced the group someway and he was the one who had connections and great interactions with practically everyone. There's no other character whom I could say the same about, not even Jack. Season 4 was seriously lacking Charlie's character.

And a hero doesn't have to die to be a hero. At that point of the show (Greatest Hits), the right thing to do would have been to be there for Claire and Aaron.
(Thank God it was not Damon Lindelof who wrote Harry Potter)
[User Picture Icon]
From:falafel_musings
Date:July 24th, 2008 11:09 pm (UTC)

Re: spoilers

(Permanent Link)
Okay...love you for this comment.

I definitely agree about the balance thing. Charlie was a warts and all human being with great spirit. There's no other character on Lost that has that quality. And yeah, so many good relationships have been lost besides his individual character. And his death/destiny has no meaning now since Claire and Aaron didn't get on any bloody rescue helicopter.

You know what? I kinda think all the characters are gonna die. Like Sayid says in this ep "We should not have survived". I think maybe the island gave the Lostees "a new life" after the plane crash. The island wants the Losties to better themselves. Then they must fulfil some tiny little destiny like Charlie and Michael did. Then the island kills them and their spirits becomes part of the island or something.

Maybe Charlie was lucky to get out early? I reckon S6 will be a bloodbath.
[User Picture Icon]
From:hendercats
Date:July 25th, 2008 12:48 am (UTC)

Re: spoilers

(Permanent Link)
I also wish they had done more with the whole musician part of his character. By the very end they did, but for a while it was ignored
This type of thing makes me think the writers are rather ADD - they know how closely the fans dissect every little tidbit, you'd think they'd be more careful about dropping things that are clearly important threads.
[User Picture Icon]
From:pacejunkie
Date:July 25th, 2008 12:59 am (UTC)

Re: spoilers

(Permanent Link)
Their attention spans are definitely shorter than their viewers' are. We could still be fixated on a storyline wondering where it will go while they've already moved on to something else, and it happens over and over.
[User Picture Icon]
From:matitablu
Date:July 24th, 2008 01:28 pm (UTC)

Spoilers for all seasons

(Permanent Link)
There was something about Charlie and his need to feel useful to the group that made me think of Shannon as well. And Boone. Let alone Claire, it seems like the younger characters have all feelings about being inadequate and not taken seriously enough, no matter how hard they try... The point is, they are quite right given their mortality rate. It feels like, in Lost, only experience and/or disillusionment might help you to survive. Which might even be realistic, but also quite depressing D:

Anyway, I've never been much of a Charlie fan, but in light of his later stpry arcs, I'm enjoying early!Charlie more. Though, am I the only one finding the look of Driveshaft quite inadequate for a britpop band inspired by Oasis? They look quite like "generic rockstar" here, eyeliner and everything.

I also found this exchange interesting:

KATE: People survive plane crashes all the time.
SAYID: Not like this one. The tail section broke off while we were still in the air. Our section cart wheeled through the jungle and yet we escaped with nothing but a few scrapes. How do you explain that?
KATE: Blind, dumb luck?
SAYID: No one's that lucky. We shouldn't have survived.
KATE: Sorry Sayid, some things just happen, no rhyme, no reason.

Of course, Sayid is quite right, y/y? while Kate is already starting to deny the fact that she *had* to end up on that island, much like she is probably the last one that will decide (or will be forced to) go back in the end.
[User Picture Icon]
From:doctors_girl
Date:July 24th, 2008 10:36 pm (UTC)

Re: Spoilers for all seasons

(Permanent Link)
That conversation is indeed interesting. Kate is one of the characters who are quite unimpressed by the Island's "magical powers". She is downright frightened when she must face it that the place is extraordinary (the black horse), and she experienced it's terrifying properties so early in the first episode. I think she was in denial in that stage, because the Island scares her.